• STeebs
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Topic: Harmonies and am I doing something glaringly obviously wrong

Hi all,

A previous post has discussed how harmonies via guitar / midi work (i.e. work out intervals and apply to harmony).

However.  I'm struggling to get this to work in the context of "order", (so in order) Guitar or Keyboard / Midi / Aux input / Auto key / roomsense / fixed key ... etc, because unless i'm missing something.  I can't seem to get it to work that way.

Usual video (video says more words).  I recorded me giving ee vowel on C4 - 20 seconds worth (I did several seconds and copy / paste, rather then C4 for 20 seconds, lol).

Seen - 00:30 - 00:45

http://youtu.be/Xjef2UgFOuk

1:01 - has the "high and higher" harmony internally set, you can clearly hear the harmonies.  I have a fiddle and the harmonies change as per left bottom button changes (high and low .. etc).

NOTE: - You can clearly see it Auto Key (so isn't the troubleshoot error as per Page 36 manual, "If you’re using Guitar or MIDI to control Harmony, make sure you’ve got the Key set to AUTO on the Harmony effect page."

1:41 - 2:25 - I then plugged DX-7 to midi and had High and Higher and played the C4 vowel, whilst applying various C Maj, C Min, C Sus2 ... C, A, C .. etc.  But as you can see ... nothing on Harmonies (based on midi data) except the "high and higher internal set intervals". 
   ... Yesterday I tried the same with guitar with the same results of guitar not recognised and apply intervals to harmonies either.

... So seems like the midi instruction was ignored.  (Ah ha, I hear you say - cable ... setup, or something like that!!)

2:38 - 3:27 - After watching Tom's Konnect video, I knew about "notes", so I turned harmony to "notes" section and did the same exercise.

   ... Now you can CLEARLY hear the harmony intervals and individual keyed notes applied to the vowel.

So... In normal mode (harmony - Auto key), is / should midi intervals be applied to the harmony (i.e. as per order Guitar / midi / auto roomsense / fixed key), or am I doing something so glaringly obviously wrong ?

Thanks,  Likely it'll be one setting i'm missing (and a jolly good laugh all round)

Stewart

Last edited by STeebs (2012-07-06 04:49:26)

  • From: Charleston, SC
  • Registered: 2008-08-05
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Re: Harmonies and am I doing something glaringly obviously wrong

Wow, I wrote a looong post, trying to explain what I don't really understand, either!
And then it hit me...MAYBE I should actually watch the video!

And my attempt to answer your question is now shorter: Yes Stewart, you can control harmonies via MIDI in "notes" mode ONLY.

At least, this is how I understand it after comparing your video and Tom's videos and the manual.

Last edited by roxville (2012-07-06 08:14:28)

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Re: Harmonies and am I doing something glaringly obviously wrong

If I understand Tom's video, he says for usage of "notes" for, "a specific melody line".
... so you can get the harmony voices to "stack on a single midi note that you play".  Which btw is a very cool feature (I WILL be using on a preset up for end of line stuff (Maj, Min kind of thing and a dancy harmony)).

That's what I understand "notes" mode to be. 

It's now the guitar / keyboard / midi controlling the harmony intervals that i'm missing.  Because I tried C, Cmin, C sus ... etc on the guitar (you know having fingers in all sorts of places they don't reach on the guitar) and couldn't work it out.

For example C Maj gives C/E/G, CMin C/Eb/G. In Harmony the interval has changed a semi and that's an audible difference. 

So if I sang a Vowel on C, with Harmony on and fingered a CMaj (or guitar strummed it), The high and higher would be Root (sung note)-(c), High voice (e), Higher voice (g).

Would a Cmin change the harmony to Root (sung)-(c), High voice (Eb), Higher voice (g)

NOTE - I'll add to this post in relation to Rox's post below in 'NOTES MODE', it does EXACTLY that, harmony notes become C/Eb/G for CMin.                                                                                    |                                                                                                                                                                                \/

Thoughts ?

Last edited by STeebs (2012-07-06 10:43:11)

  • From: Charleston, SC
  • Registered: 2008-08-05
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Re: Harmonies and am I doing something glaringly obviously wrong

OK, this is becoming very intriguing smile
Unfortunately, I lend my old AXIOM midi controller to a friend, so
I can't test it right now.

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  • From: Victoria, BC
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Re: Harmonies and am I doing something glaringly obviously wrong

Heya Steebs,

Here's a link to the Harmony I/O chart so you can take a look at what the various scales are doing to the incoming note:

http://support.tc-helicon.com/entries/2 … n-products

For Notes mode Harmony (the last setting in Harmony) you indeed control the harmony output by directy pressing the keys. You need to set your split note and direction.

When you've got Key/Scale set to auto, just plug in midi and play the song normally. That's NaturalPlay. It'll listen to the performance as a whole, not just the couple of notes, and figure out key/scale from there.

Some users prefer the super-accuracy of notes mode, but most "just wanna play" and let NaturalPlay figure things out.

Cheers,
Craig

P.S. There is a small error in the scale output chart in the last column. The B input doesn't give an F output for the 3rd in Major 2. I'm not pro with theory, so I don't know what the correct note is. I just remember it being pointed out that it's not correct on the chart.

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

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Re: Harmonies and am I doing something glaringly obviously wrong

Ok, mind whirring,

So... The natural play (listening to guitar and keyboard (or midi in), will work out the "key" of the song and adjust harmony notes accordingly (as per list - NOT user defined).  This will also successfully detect a key change in a song (which we discussed in other post).

... So the, "guitar / keyboard / midi controlling the harmony intervals", now should read as, "guitar / keyboard / midi controls the song key (by detection through NaturalPlay)" and intervals are set intervals (as per I/O chart).

For more intricate harmonies, use notes mode and have harmonies that enable us to defy conventional music theory and apply whatever intervals we want (Which is what Chris said above smile ).

Got you (if that is indeed correct).

p.s. IF I remember (which I often forget, B, D# F#)

Last edited by STeebs (2012-07-06 12:49:19)

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Re: Harmonies and am I doing something glaringly obviously wrong

Hi,

I've woken up and think i'm more confused than ever.  The reason is the Best results for harmonies post,

http://voicecouncil.com/forum/topic/379 … harmonies/ 

Within that post I didn't understand the harmonies and Alpenritter had a post that I added to it thinking that the harmony set could / needed to be expanded on (i.e. and expanded data set).  This was to cover eventualities such as Sus's .. etc.  I wrote a little script with "if's" in to cover the scenarios.

This was further explained by Tom as, "Currently, if you're playing a guitar or keyboard, it's not setting the key per-se, it's following the chords . So, that includes Dim, Mj7 etc."

The post went on and I said;

... Thus the current software actually covers ALL eventualities AND MORE so allows a user to have harmony based on made up chords, (1, 2, 3), (1, 2, 5) (1, 3, 4) (1, 4, 5) ... etc.  May make for interesting sounds, but loads of fun.

so.  1), midi 2) Guitar,
  ... "hear" chord data
   ... Work out intervals
    ... Play harmony, H1, H2, H3 based on chord data (whatever it is  ).

So Does it do this currently (as cool if it does) and we've all come full circle.

Craig's response, "Haha yep, I think we've come around the merry-go-round  That's exactly how it works."  And with the VL2 you can have custom harmony map as well.

...

That's what has now confused me, My above vid (and post) is based on the results of the Alpenritter post.

Thoughts ?

Last edited by STeebs (2012-07-07 01:37:42)

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
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Re: Harmonies and am I doing something glaringly obviously wrong

Heya Steebs,

From the video above, are you still sending out the MIDI data from Reaper while playing the chords? I didn't see the MIDI track muted, so I'm just wondering if the box is receiving just the MIDI for the single note. Looks like the MIDI in Reaper is driving a synth to create the note... if that's the case and the MIDI is coming out of Reaper, the VLP might just be "stuck" listening to the one note.

Also, when you're playing the chords in Notes mode, keep in mind that there's only 2 voices of Harmony available, so you need to pick 2 notes to fire off the harmonies with. If you're chording with 3, you'll get whichever 2 land 1st and it could change if you release one of those 2 for a sec smile

Cheers,
Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

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Re: Harmonies and am I doing something glaringly obviously wrong

Hi Craig,

Thanks for the response.

I understand notes mode.  I have had loads of fun with it and it's likely i'll be using it quite a bit.

The midi track was ... what's the word in reaper (you know when the red button isn't pressed) ?

The bit I don't understand is the harmonies and guitar in (or keyboard in mode), so guitar into Inst in (or keyboard into instr in).

It's harmonies in that mode (so harmony auto mode) I don't yet understand.  there are 2 conflicting posts and i'm trying to understand which one is right.

So;
1)
"guitar / keyboard (in instr insert) controls the song key (by detection through NaturalPlay)" and intervals are set intervals (as per I/O chart).
   ... This is this post appeared to say)

2) The alpenritter post.
   ... This was further explained by Tom as, "Currently, if you're playing a guitar or keyboard, it's not setting the key per-se, it's following the chords . So, that includes Dim, Mj7 etc." 
      ... Thus the current software actually covers ALL eventualities AND MORE so allows a user to have harmony based on made up chords, (1, 2, 3), (1, 2, 5) (1, 3, 4) (1, 4, 5) ... etc.  May make for interesting sounds, but loads of fun.
so.  1), midi 2) Guitar,
  ... "hear" chord data
   ... Work out intervals
    ... Play harmony, H1, H2, H3 based on chord data (whatever it is  ).
So Does it do this currently (as cool if it does) and we've all come full circle.
...   ...   Craig's response, "Haha yep, I think we've come around the merry-go-round  That's exactly how it works."  And with the VL2 you can have custom harmony map as well.

So it's a 1 or 2 for instr in and harmony in auto mode.

Thanks,  sorry about the confusion (lol).

Stewart

What I "think" the answer may be is, 1) is auto mode (so harmonies cannot detect sus2 / 4 / dim .. etc and apply to harmonies) and 2) is notes mode (which of course smile can).

Last edited by STeebs (2012-07-09 09:43:39)