• brynte
  • VC Top Contributor
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 58

Topic: problems with spdif...

i´m trying to process already recorded vocals, but it´s not working out and i need to find out why!
as soon as i connect my headphones to vl2 it starts to beep very loud (in the headphones)!
if i go through different presets, i hear the beep changes, but still at the same volume (too loud to wear the headphones)
i´m new to this (never used spdif before and very little midi), so it´s quite possible that i´ve made some simple mistake with connections!

i had to buy a convertor box to be able to use spdif, since my soundcard (rme babyface) only has optical spdif and vl2 has coaxial!

this is the connections i´ve made:

*spdif from soundcard (out) to the box (in)
*spdif from the box (out) to vl2 (in)
*spdif from vl2 (out) to the box (in)
*spdif from the box (out) to the soundcard (in)

do you guys see any wrong connections here, or have any other ideas of what could be wrong?

Last edited by brynte (2011-09-19 14:11:42)

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: problems with spdif...

Hi Brynte,

You're likely hearing a feedback loop. Try sending the signal out of your DAW as a Pre-Fader Aux send, via the spdif, while turning down the fader on the channel the vocals are coming from. Then, return the signal to a stereo return and record that track. That way, you're not hearing both the input and output at the same time, which is probably responsible for the feedback.

Cheers,
Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • brynte
  • VC Top Contributor
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 58

Re: problems with spdif...

ok, thanx craig!
no more loud beeping!

i´m still having problems though!

*i selected vl2 in the asio4all setup!

*i selected in vl2 digital in: spdif vox left/ instr right
digital out: full mix!

*in cubase 5 i created a new external fx bus!
send: mono
return: stereo

*added my external fx bus as an insert effect on the vocal

what am i doing wrong?
there´s no sound at all and the meters aren´t moving!
is there a better way to do this (recording a track with harmonies, guided by a guitar track)?

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: problems with spdif...

Hi Brynte,

You may find it easier to do the whole processing cycle via your Babyface.

You can just set the output of your vocal channel in Cubase to a mono out on the Babyface and plug that into the VL2. If you want to just record the processed vocals, turn LEAD MUTE:ON in "Setup-I/O".

Then, plug the XLR or TRS outputs from the VL2 into your Babyface inputs and record the result on a new stereo track in Cubase.

Then you can mix between your "effected" track and original vocal. It allows for lots of flexibility in automation, different effects on each channel etc.

Keep me posted.

Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • brynte
  • VC Top Contributor
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 58

Re: problems with spdif...

thanx a lot craig, for helping out:-)

since i bought both an spdif converter and spdif cables, only for this purpose, i wanted to give it another go, but still no luck, so i decided to try the usb connection first, before moving on to your suggestion!

it worked perfectly for a little while and i was thrilled, but then it started to distort and it got worse every second!
i looked at the vl2 screen and i noticed that it clipped and figured that must be the reason why!
lowered the volume so it stopped clipping, but it still distorts!

this is really weird cause i put the chorus in a cycle, to try different presets of the vl2 out and it starts out sounding just perfect and i love it, but after a couple of cycles, it starts to distort a little and it just keeps getting worse every cycle, until it´s totally unbearable and i have to turn it off!

any ideas what´s going on here?
could it be asio4all that´s causing it?
never used it before, but i had to install it, to try spdif out and i need it to do this via usb, but i guess i can get rid of it, using craigs suggested method...!?

feels like i´m getting close now and i´ve finally gotten a small taste of what this machine can do:-)

EDIT: if it helps to determine the cause, i just found out that if i let the distortion escalate, until it´s just a blur of ugly distortion, it reaches a point, where the audio stopps for a second and then it sounds good again, for a while, until it starts to distort again!
i also tried to lower the output from the vl2, but that didn´t help!

Last edited by brynte (2011-09-20 15:46:32)

  • Registered: 2011-08-30
  • Posts: 40

Re: problems with spdif...

That pattern sounds like a feedback loop, where an output is routed in as an input somewhere.

  • brynte
  • VC Top Contributor
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 58

Re: problems with spdif...

thanx for helping out, father john:-)

i´ve found the problem:-)
it was the buffersize in asio4all!
i usually have the latency set to about 4-5ms, when i go through my soundcard and i wanted to set asio4all up, so that it had about that same latency!
i pulled the buffersize slider all the way to the left and got about 6-7ms and since i couldn´t come any closer and it´s still ok latency, i didn´t think more of it!
i have a very good and almost new laptop, created for music production, so i felt pretty sure that whatever i did, my laptop would have no problems running perfectly!
anyway, i pulled the buffersize slider back to about 500 and i thought the problem was solved, but after a while it started to distort again, so i pulled the slider up to 1024 and now everything seems to work perfectly!

the only thing that bothers me now is the latency!
i don´t have my laptop here right now to check, but i think it´s somewhere about 20ms and that is not so great!

i´m thinking about craigs method, described earlier in this thread...
then i would no longer need to use asio4all and would probably get a lot better latency, from my souncards drivers!?
would there be any difference in sound quality, using usb, compared to trs?

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: problems with spdif...

Hi Brynte,

The latency issue is inherent in every system. The reason people pony up tens of thousands for dedicated hardware like PT-HD is to try and get rid of latency. To be honest, latency shouldn't matter in the least if you're just processing stuff. It's more about having low latency if you want to record with internal effects and monitor at the same time. To get around that, most people do direct hardware monitoring instead, which is near zero latency.

As for audio quality, it's almost identical. You'd be hard pressed to hear the difference on all but the most pristine monitoring systems.

Keep at it!

Cheers,
Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • brynte
  • VC Top Contributor
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 58

Re: problems with spdif...

ok, that sounds reassuring:-)

now that i know that latency is no issue when processing, the only problem is that i´m probably going to record some of the harmonies with my keyboard and then the latency becomes important again!?

"To get around that, most people do direct hardware monitoring instead, which is near zero latency."

do you mean that this is the result of monitoring from the vl2, instead of monitoring from the laptop?

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: problems with spdif...

Hi Brynte,

Not exactly. You'd turn on "input monitoring" in your DAW and listen to what's coming in from the VL2. (some DAW's monitor the input when record is armed) You shouldn't have latency that way. Monitoring latency is greatly increased if you're adding effects to the channel in "real time" as you record it. Your manual for the DAW likely has a lot of info about how to manage your monitoring.

In my studio, the buffers are almost always set at 1024, since that makes my slightly older system perform well. I never have "latency" since I monitor what's being recorded with no effects (hardware monitoring). The DAW then does all the latency compensation for my various plugins on playback, so it's never heard. If a singer wants effects on during recording, I use external hardware, but that's a luxury of having a bit more gear to use.

For the harmonies controlled by your keyboard, you could record the keyboard part on a separate MIDI track, then send that track out to the VL2 to control the harmonies while you sing. That way, you only have to get the keyboard part done once and can focus on singing.

Hope that makes sense. wink

Cheers,
Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • brynte
  • VC Top Contributor
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 58

Re: problems with spdif...

ok, thanx for clearing things up:-)

i´m off on vacation for a week, leaving tomorrow, so i´ll try that when i get back:-)

  • Registered: 2011-02-24
  • Posts: 20

Re: problems with spdif...

Hey Brynte...Did you ever do any further testing with the SPDIF method ? I have alway done my VL2 harmonies "realtime" (i.e. re-singing/recording the parts that need harmony, but muting the lead voice) I have recently had need to attempt to route a vocal track from my DAW back to the VL2 and capture a harmony track. What a mission !! The VL2 is definately designed for live performance !! I gave up trying USB / ASIO4ALL because of the same issues you encountered. I also purchased an M-Audio Optical/CoAxial convertor (before I read this thread) but can't get this to work either with SPDIF settings on the VL2. My Mackie Blackbird FW Interface has the newer, optical interface.

At least re-singing my vocal parts that need harmony gets me that human, sligtly off-time feel (as though there a group of singers actually there...LOL)

Any progress ???

  • Registered: 2011-03-25
  • Posts: 133

Re: problems with spdif...

I haven't read through the whole thread but I've never had any problems using the VL2 with S/Pdif. I have it setup in cubase as an external instrument.

So just put it in my vocal sub group and any track going to that sub group goes through the VL2.

I run at 4ms but running external may double that. Cubase compensates.

It's like live, not noticeable delay unless you had a live feed to hear it against.

You get used to it.

  • brynte
  • VC Top Contributor
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 58

Re: problems with spdif...

ceefcee - well, i´ve only used the vl2 on 1 song, so far (the one a few threads down), and i failed using spdif, so i did that with usb and asio4all!
however, i will probably make a new attempt on my next song, with spdif, cause it seems like a better way of working, once you get it working!

i have new hope that i will succeed this time, cause i´ve succeeded in using another product, with spdif!
remember to connect everything "to the opposite"!
in to the spdif of vl2 goes to "the opposite" out, in the adapter and so on!
and set the soundcard to "internal clock"!

tacman7 - you seem to know this like the back of your hand!
would you please consider writing a newbie, step by step, as to how this is done, exactly?
that would probably help out some people (at least 2)...

  • Registered: 2011-03-25
  • Posts: 133

Re: problems with spdif...

I just plugged it in...

in to out, out to in...


You usually have to tell a device in its menu's somewhere that you want it to use S/Pdif and set the sample rate or tell it to slave to the interface rate, can't remember with the VL2 what I had to do.

I work in 48k which is native to most TC stuff.

Then setting up an external fx is done in VSTconnections if you use cubase.
I can add more if you need help with that part.
But you're having trouble just getting a signal right?

  • brynte
  • VC Top Contributor
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 58

Re: problems with spdif...

thanx for those tips, tacman:-)

it´s been quite a while now, since i tried spdif, but hopefully i´ll try it again pretty soon, so i´ll get back to you (or anyone else in this forum), when and if, i need some help with it;-)