• Registered: 2011-11-13
  • Posts: 10

Topic: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

I have a serious distortion issue with my unit. When I am using the unit in the studio with my Line6 XDV-70 Wireless MIC, the unit seems to distort the output (check sample at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25273650/VoxOnly.mp3). Note, that there is no clipping indication on the device.

We checked out, along with my soundengineer, the following cases:
-If I lower the TC unit input gain further, the distortion remains (there is no clipping indication).
-If I use the Line6 MIC without the unit (directly to the console), there is no distortion in the output
-If I press the ByPass button using the Line6 MIC, the output is without any distortion. Turning off the bypass, without making any further changes, the distortion comes back.
-If the Band is not playing along with my singing, there is no distortion on the output. (The MIC catches much of the peripheral instruments).
-If I use the unit with the included TC MIC, the output seems to be without any distortion, although we have not done any excessive testing with this setup. Also the TC Mic seems to be less sensitive than the Line6 Mic (the peripheral instruments are not so loud in the MIC input).

I previously owned a VoiceTone Harmony G XT and I had exactly the same issue.

It is quite confusing and disturbing issue. Any help will be appreciated...

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hi ekarafilis,

Thanks for doing that detailed testing!

What you're experiencing is bleed from other instruments/monitors that is causing the Rack to try to process ambient sounds.

The reason you don't have the issue when singing alone or with the MP-75 is that there's a pure signal for the Rack to process. The MP-75 has an incredibly tight polar pattern and rejects very well.

The best thing you can do if you are dead set on using the Line6 mic is experiment with amp/monitor positioning on stage and lower your overall band volume. It's definitely common for users to have to muck around a bit with their setup to get the most out of the unit.

The alternative is to get a different wireless mic with better rejection.

Cheers,
Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • Registered: 2011-11-13
  • Posts: 10

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hello Craig,

Thanks for your quick response!

I am currently testing the wireless system and the unit in the rehearsal studio which is loud enough. I am concerned though getting the unit out in a real stage performance since my MICs (Line6 and Shure models), which best fit my voice, are quite sensitive. I move a lot on the stage and I use the mic in many angles as part of my stage performance. So, controlling the stage sound will be quite a challenge especially in the clubs I am playing, in which I have no more than 15-30 min for soundchecking. 

If I use the same mic with a TLA preamp --> into a Lexicon MX300 reverb unit --> to the console, I have not such distortion (This is my current setup). When I am using the TC unit with reverb and tone only, distortion appears. I assume that both setups have to process the same input and apply the same effects (reverb, eq and compressor) though TLA&Lexicon does not introduce any distortion while TC does smile

I feel a little bit confused on how to make this unit work for me...

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hm, normally it's the harmonies/doubling/hardtune that cause issues with bleed, not the reverb and tone. I tried to access the dropbox file to listen, but it's giving a 404 Not Found error.

Do you have another way of getting it online for me to listen to?

Thanks!
Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • Registered: 2011-11-13
  • Posts: 10

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25273650/VoxOnly.mp3 check it out... is working smile

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hi ekarafilis,

We happened to have a Line6 Wireless mic here and I tried to recreate the noise you're hearing, but I couldn't. Granted I was blasting music through studio monitors, which aren't stage volume, but were pretty darned loud.

I had the engineers take a listen to your clip and they haven't heard that noise emanating from our DSP processors before. Their impression is that it's interaction between your particular mic and the environment, since you can solve the issue with a different mic or with the band not playing.

I'm not sure how to direct you at this point. The consensus here is that it definitely sounds weird, but that it's not likely anything wrong with the Rack itself.

The one interesting point that's a bit confusing is that you're getting that noise without any of our pitch blocks activated. Are you sure that you've got no correction going on? There's no auto-chromatic correction turned on anywhere? Typically, "warbling, distortion" etc. described by users is happening with mic leakage through the harmony/pitch circuits.

Sorry that I can't give you an easy solution on this one sad

-Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • Registered: 2011-11-13
  • Posts: 10

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hello Craig,

Thank you for your reply!!

I will try next Sunday to further test the unit with different MICs and different settings and I will come back to you. I am not sure if I had the pitch correction OFF during the last tests. 

When I had the Harmony G XT unit I had exactly the same effect with both Line6 and Shure MICs. I haven't tested the VoiceLive Rack with a Shure MIC yet. I will try to do that on my next rehearsal making sure that every pitch processing is deactivated.

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Something else to try would be to turn off all the effects blocks, but not use the bypass switch, and see if the errors are still there. If they are gone, try turning on the effects/tone/pitch one at a time to see if it shows up all of a sudden. If you can narrow it down to a particular effect or even effect style, we can look more closely at the code on our end and see if there's something specific going on.

Thanks again for all the testing! It really helps us to make improvements to the gear.

-Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • Registered: 2011-11-13
  • Posts: 10

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hello Craig,

Just finished the rehearsal. I have turned off all pitch effects and problem solved.  It seems that I had the PITCH correction engaged all the time and that caused the distortion.

In the studio's loud environment (full of reflections) any pitch sensitive effect is not  working. We've tried to minimize the levels but it couldn't help either. I've tried my Line6, a Shure SM57, and a Shure Beta 58 with no luck.

I am planning to test the device's pitch effects in a different studio with a different band on clean sounds only; by next Monday I will be able to check if the distortion/clipping makeup thresholds are acceptable for live performance since stage levels are usually much quieter than studio levels in our case.

Last edited by ekarafilis (2011-11-20 23:14:56)

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hi Ekarafilis,

Again, thanks so much for the exhaustive testing. It's super helpful.

So, the trick now is how to get the unit working in your particular environment. Finding out that it's the correction causing the issue is good news. If it wasn't the problem, there'd be something really strange going on.

How high is your input level? The engineers think that a lower input level could create more issues than one that's higher.

Have you tried the auto-gain setting?

-Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • Registered: 2011-11-13
  • Posts: 10

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hello Craig,

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, I always use the auto-gain feature to setup the device. Although we managed to make adjustments manually during the testing too.

I was talking with a fellow vocalist, a minute ago, who owns the VoiceLive 2. He already knew about the PITCH issue and told me that he couldn't make the unit work at the rehearsal studio or at local clubs. For him the unit's PITCH effects work as a charm only outdoors, for recording, or by using a headset sad

I hope that we will find a fine line to make the unit work at clubs which is my primary concern....

  • Registered: 2011-11-13
  • Posts: 10

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hello Again,

I have tested the unit in 2 different studios, 3 different studio rooms, with 2 different bands: 1 acoustic band (perc, bass, ac gtr) and my standard Rock band. Until now it is impossible to avoid distortion in the unit if I engage any of the PITCH effects, even with the acoustic band (!!!!). 

I am still wondering how to make this work in a live setting... any improvement in a future firmware release... any setting I am not aware of?

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hi ekarafilis,

It seems to come down largely to the various mic's rejection properties, so using the MP-75 is a good solution if you can do it. It was designed with some pretty heavy rejection and you have to be basically right on top of it to get good levels.

If you can't use the MP-75, try going into the Tone setup screen (Press and Hold Tone) and go into the Gate tab. Once you're there, try lowering the Lead Attenuation setting. Default is -3, but you might find some success by lowering it to -10 or less. Play with it a bit and see if you can find a gate setting that allows your singing to comfortably come through, but closes down to block out a lot of the room sounds.

You can also try slowly lowering the Auto-Chromatic Amount in the Pitch edit screen and see if there's a "break point" where you can still get some overall correction, but that the artifacts go away. I'm not sure if that will work, since the glitches happen once the Pitch block says "this note is wrong and I need to fix it now", but it could help some.

Keep me posted!
Cheers,
Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • From: Fort Worth, TX
  • Registered: 2009-03-14
  • Posts: 9

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

I am very interested in this thread.  I bought my VLRack for the studio but have decided to buy the 3 button footswitch and try it out live in my cover band.  I planned on only using the harmonies in a limited fashion and was more interested in the effects AND the pitch correction.  I had planned on sending a dry output to a channel that I would use just for my monitors so my voice would be dry and feed the wet 1/4" outs to my 01v's stereo channels for FOH.  I just assumed that if I went that route I shouldn't get any artifacts in the harmonies or pitch correction.  I do monitor pretty loudly using wedges and I've heard that can cause issues with the unit reading the harmonies if a person is monitoring off the effected signal.  I also use the Line 6 xv70 wireless and there's no way I'm switching mics because it is far and away the best wireless mic I've ever used.  I do eat the mic but a loud stage is a loud stage so there will be leakage.  The only problem I had anticipated was the result of monitoring the wet signal but I had not considered leakage to be an issue.  Since there's no way to get around leakage and since ekarafilis has identified this as his issue I'm now concerned about how it affects both harmonies and pitch correction.

ekarafilis, is this "distortion" you are hearing coming through the front of house?  Also, are you monitoring your effected voice?  I'm trying to discern if these issues are due to general leakage or the monitoring set up.  Also, what amount of pitch correction are you using?

Thanks.

  • Registered: 2011-11-13
  • Posts: 10

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

It is coming out in the Front House and it is quite noticeable... I cannot end up with a preset (Harmony or Pitch Correction)that can work in a rehearsal studio or live environment... We've tried with different sound engineers and different MICs and nothing seems to work...

The TC MIC, in some cases, can do the job because of its great rejection. In my case unfortunately this is an issue because during my stage performance I sing a lot out of axis. Plus this mic doesn't suit my voice, in fact I don't sound well on super-cardioid or hyper-cardiod mics... plus, LINE 6 is quite appealing to my voice to sacrifice it.

We play in small clubs (400-600 m2) and we've tried during soundcheck to lower our stage levels considerably, with no results because in our case the main issue is the bleed from the drums. The stage is quite small and no matter where I sit on stage, the MIC bleed does not allow the TC unit to do its thing correctly.

Currently I am using only Tone, reverb and delay, nothing else. I suppose that the Harmony and Pitch Correction will work in specific cases during a live performance.

I am considering putting my unit on sale sad

  • Registered: 2011-12-23
  • Posts: 102

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

Hi,

As it seems the distortion is coming from the sounds that the vocal mic is picking up, have you tried to record what the mic is actuallly picking up when your playing (but not singing) ( you need to get the signal before the vocal effect processor ), so that you can actually hear what the problem is, as you may find that the issue is with say the snare drum, or the hi hat.

Once you know exactly where the problem is coming from, you can then address that problem, by either lowering the volume of that element when playing ( dont hit it so hard!) or eq the frequences on the vocal mic to stop it getting into the effects mix, or sometimes just reposition the drums / point them in different location can help.

Room acustics can play a big part as well, as if drummer is in corner, his sound will be bounced in all directions.

Sometimes even singing with your back to the drums can help, as your body is a good sound absorber, and reducing mic gain, and eating the mic.

Last edited by shoxproductions (2012-01-07 10:01:44)

*insert funny frase here*

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Everything is possible, except to ski through a revolving door.

Many times I say only 'yes' or 'no' to people. Even that is too much.
  • Registered: 2011-11-13
  • Posts: 10

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

We are using the VoiceLive unit in a Live Situation. Harmonies are generated by Midi not Guitar. It is not necessary to engage Harmonies in order to have the clipping effect on the output. Even if you engage pitch correction clipping is there.

We managed to minimize the problem by using plexi-glass in front of the drums. This reduces the bleed on the MIC input and TC unit does not mess up the processing. Unfortunately plexi-glass is not an option in most venues and the only way to bypass the issue is to use a MIC with great rejection.

Every other technique posted in this thread for minimizing the problem has not worked for us.

  • Registered: 2012-01-11
  • Posts: 4

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

I'm new to the VL Rack, but have experienced the same problems.  It works well for recording, but I can't use it live or in rehearsal - even with the MP75.  I'm the lead guitar player and planned to mostly use the unit for back-up vocals (pitch correction and harmony effects primarily).  Even during quiet songs there is almost a "distorted phaser" effect  - even when my monitor is off (just ambient room noise will cause it).  I've kept the gain up to just-before-clip and I eat the mic.  I haven't messed with the gate, so I'll play with that.  We have rehearsal in a couple of hours, so I'll try that then.

  • Registered: 2012-01-11
  • Posts: 4

Re: VoiceLive Rack Distortion Problem

I figured out a way to use this successfully for BACKUP vocals on a loud stage. I emphasize backup because I'm compressing and gating the crap out of it. I'm using the compressor on the unit, but I'm also compressing on the studiolive - both on the channel and the bus it's routed to. That gives me the "headroom" I need. I'm gating on the unit and the studiolive. I'm then running any reverbs or delays on the bus it's routed to so I don't lose all trails. The biggest revaluation was in the aux in on the back. I was feeding that as the method of setting up natural play for correction and harmony. I'm not sure if it was a setting I didn't have right or if it's just the way the unit is, but it appears what I thought was ambient sound is actually some internal bleed of the main mix being processed by the unit (not through the mic, but internally). Anyway, it appears to be working without coloring the whole mix now. I'm using the guitar to feed natural play. One other change I almost forgot: this whole setup still caused that bleeding sound until I hooked up the vl rack as a channel insert rather that micing directly to it.