VoiceLive 2 freezing (Page 1 of 2)

Hi Craig.

Thanks for your reply to my posting.

RE: "We've encountered a few people having issues with specific keyboards causing the VL2 to freeze"

RE: "Try to make sure that no extra MIDI data is being transmitted from the keyboard and see if that helps at all".

In the first instance above you do not actually identify the specific keyboards involved in those "freezes", or indicate whether Yamaha's flagship Tyros 4, which I own, is one of them. If the latter is affirmative I shall communicate this to Yamaha for their comments as a £3600.00 keyboard should not be guilty of overwhelming a VL2 or indeed any MIDI driven device.

Secondly Craig, as I indicated in my original posting, my VL2 is being fed by a single MIDI Transmit on Channel 1 from my Tyros 4 "Upper Keyboard" only as selected in the MIDI section of the Tyros. No other MIDI Transmit is going out from my keyboard and into the VL2. I think it's fair to conclude, on that basis, that my VL2 is not being unduly "blasted" by an excessive amount of "MIDI Data" and thus leaves my new VL2 with this 'unholy' random freeze condition and the important question of "Why"?

Please, can you offer any further assistance or information so I might resolve this issue. The VL2 is an excellent piece of kit but I do need it to function consistently.

Without prejudice.

Kindest regards,

John in the UK

Hi shoxproductions,

Likewise, thanks for your suggestion. It seems a rather involved process and one which is potentially above my abilities. I'm pretty sure my audience would not welcome me stopping "mid-stream" and announcing my VL2 has packed up and I need to undertake investigative diagnostics and therapy for its manufacturer.

In total honesty I get a gut feeling it's not the Tyros 4 or the Yamaha PSR-S900 fault but my new VL2. Craig has already said they've had freezing problems from various keyboards which is somewhat indicative their VL2 product is potentially crashing with MIDI inputs apart from Yamaha's. Maybe it's a firmware problem, hopefully not a hardware one. I don't really know; pure speculation on my part.

In respect to my Tyros 4 or the Yamaha PSR-S900 keyboards performance record, I've had not a single problem feeding a "Roland VP7 Vocal Harmoniser" for over a year with their MIDI. I actually bought my VL2 to replace the VP7.

For reference, the Roland VP7's vocals are actually modulated by a MIDI input from my keyboards and will actually work successfully with multiple channel feeds whereas I'm only using a single input to the VL2. I'm aware that no two devices are the same but the fundemantal MIDI interfaces are surely standardized these days??

It's a tricky one I know, but I didn't expect problems on the 'first lap' with my highly reputed VL2. I bought the best and just wish it to work well for me over a reasonable period of time.

Thank you once more for your feedback, it is very welcomed.

Kindest regards, as ever,

John in the UK

Last edited by johntee (2012-02-03 08:06:02)

Hello again shoxproductions,

I see that it's approaching midnight in your location which indicates you too burn the old "midnight oil" likened to myself.

I do hope Craig can offer a solution; I only want the VL2 to operate and serve me faithfully in accordance with that which 'TC' promote in its product advertising.

I would be telling an untruth if I said that my first experience of a TC Helicon product hadn't left a slightly bitter taste in my mouth. It has. However, it's alien to my nature to "slate" anyone or anything off unjustly so I wait anxiously in hopeful anticipation of a resolve in a realistic time.

Thankfully, here in the UK we do have consumer protection laws which, as a last resort, allow us to return a 'faulty' or malperforming product for replacement or refund under the "Sale of Goods Act 2009. The latter is not an avenue I would wish to pursue too hastily though. In the meantime I will resort to using my "Roland VP7 Vocal Harmonizer" to save me face and prospective embarrassment. I'm pretty sure you will understand my predicament.

Once again I extend my thanks for your communication and offer of help.

Kindest regards to you and other forum members,

John in the UK

Last edited by johntee (2012-02-02 03:27:45)

...well, John is not alone having this problem!
And "...as people will always hype the bad" ...what's that about???

I'm shure all of us love our VL2s ...for both sound and options, BUT...
We NEED our equipment to act stable when performing ...we don't need the stress factor of performing with unstable pieces of gear. 
As John so well said: "...to save me face and prospective embarrassment"

Read my posts in the thread "Shortcut Tempo Delay issue":

http://voicecouncil.com/forum/post/15785/#p15785

I've got two VL2s, and they're both freezing!! (running latest FW)

Oyvind

Hello everyone,

Just a quick addition to my VL2 "freeze" posting. Should I submit the contents of my problem to TC Helicon Supports Team now and get a logged number from them.

My brother who is a lawyer ( I know, I've taken endless flac over the years because of his profession ) suggests that action would be adviseable for reference purposes and such. Whilst my brother is undoubtedly a very smart guy I'd still appreciate our members shout in this respect.

Kindest regards,

John in the UK

Hello Jeepers,

Thank you for your response to my posting.

Of course I agree with you wholeheartedly, and likewise our fellow member "shoxproductions" thinks it may be a device fault and that its return would be a reasonable path to take. However, if you read the contents of my posts above you will see the following extracts by me:

"Realistically it would carry more "punch" if I had the backing of TC Helicon with they, as the manufacturers, identifying "occasional and very, very rare" cases of VL2 freezes and maybe a need of a product swap as a reasonable resolution"

"I really need to see if Craig can offer a solution. One cannot expect to plant a seed one day and find fruit on the branches of the tree the next morning, that's unrealistic in anyone’s eyes. However, it must be remembered that the longer a problem remains unresolved the more difficult it becomes to mediate an amicable conclusion for all."

Anyone may genuinely ask what do these quote extracts demonstrate as they may be construed as being somewhat transparent.

Please let me explain. Firstly, I like the TC Helicon product, the VL2 is a great piece of kit and one which many musicians have and which others would dearly love to own themselves. I would rather it work than beating brows with my music dealership.

Secondly, I'm not an unreasonable guy. I'm prepared to give anyone a "fair crack of the whip" to resolve issues rather than using the "bull in a China shop" approach.

I suppose in consequence some persons may conclude that I'm an "easy touch." I'm most certainly not that Jeepers, I've been in successful business for too many years to be tagged with such. In respect to my brother’s advice as a lawyer, I think it may well have merit but looked for our members take on such. Many will have dealt with TC Helicon many times before me. It's always great to ask those who may have walked the path before you. I'm sincerely hopeful that Craig or "TC" can solve the freezing issue in a reasonable time or at least support me should I have need to approach our music dealership for exchange. I have contacted the music dealership and made them aware of my VL2's freezing issues and my attempts to get it rectified. The person with whom I spoke was somewhat blasé over the whole issue. Thankfully I recorded the conversation; this protects me should they say I did not warn them before hand.

I hope you understand my reasoning and should a product return be deemed essential, it will take place. I'm sorry I do not know how to insert a "Smiley"

Many thanks again Jeepers and best wishes.

Kindest regards to all,

John in the UK

PS. ADMIN, When does my profile signature become visible?

Here is the one I set up in "Profile" at the top of the page. I always quite liked it.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace"
Jimmy Hendrix - William Gladstone 1809-1898

Last edited by johntee (2012-02-03 14:58:29)

Hi guys,

This one is a bit of an enigma for us. When it's totally random in occurrence and happening on multiple keyboards (another Yamaha for sure has been reported and a Korg too if memory serves) it makes it very difficult to reproduce and then fix. That said, there was a suggestion for implementing a reset clock (over my head technically) with the intent to give a safety net for stopping a MIDI error from shutting down or freezing the whole system.

It's really frustrating for us not to be able to pin it down and offer a solution right away, but we're working on some ideas that we hope will address it.

With literally 1000's of units out there, it's an issue that's been reported less than 10 times. That doesn't mean it's not important. I'd HATE it if my unit crashed during a show! It does mean that the sample size for users experiencing it is so low that it takes a bit longer to really determine the cause.

A smiley is colon, right bracket

I'm not sure about signatures. I've never set one up lol.

Cheers,
Craig

Hello Craig & Mark,

Thank you both for your posts.

Craig, I truly understand the predicament of the 'TC' team investigating, identifying, and thereafter fixing a random fault in the VoiceLive 2 product.

I can sympathise for I have "walked similar paths" in the course of my life. I kind of revealed this when replying to "Jeepers" posting above and stating the following.

Quote: "I'm not an unreasonable guy. I'm prepared to give anyone a "fair crack of the whip" to resolve issues rather than using the "bull in a China shop" approach."

At this point both myself, and I'm sure the other 'freeze' sufferers, implore 'TC' not to place this on the 'back burner' because of so few effected units, but to actively pursue a solution as a matter of urgency. It's so easy for the most reputable of companies to take a 'hit-in-the pants' when competitors get wind of product instabilities. Vultures really do exist in the business world and believe me they will strike at the opportunity. TC Helicon produce great products, there is no denying that fact, and I would not wish any adversity to be directed their way.

I think that you 'Mark48; are thinking in the best interests of everyone involved, however to give access to the "Goose which lays the golden egg" may be asking a little too much of TC Helicon. The MIDI OX utility for logging was likewise mentioned by our member "shoxproductions" in a post above but must be a consideration for the 'TC' development team in whatever way they may approach such.  A personal opinion of course Mark.

In conclusion, on a personal level, I would expect the TC Helicon company to support me should a product fault continue and especially in relation to a VL2 exchange scenario. The potential for a dealership to insist on a "repair route," and thus denying me my brand new £665.00 unit for weeks, is not really acceptable.

PS. No member has answered my question yet in respect to whether I should log a product fault with TC Helicon as my lawyer brother suggests. Please, advice is needed on this point.

Kindest regards to all,

John in the UK

Current signature:

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace"
Jimmy Hendrix - William Gladstone 1809-1898

Last edited by johntee (2012-02-04 02:27:56)

Oops, missed shoxproductions post regarding MIDIOX, however he had mentioned monitoring channel 1. If you're using the styles on either the Tyros or PSR-S900 (I do own a PSR-S900), midi data can be sent on multiple channels depending on the instrument(s) used for a given style and how the keyboard is setup for data transmission (look up MIDI Templates selection for the PSR-S900). If the keyboard "Registration" banks are used during a performance, these send out a plethora of MIDI data to make necessary changes in the keyboard setup.

Regarding "give access to the "Goose which lays the golden egg"", I presume this to mean my suggestion to provide the MIDI system exclusive information for their products. Most all the gear I have from various manufacturers does provide this information, some quite comprehensive. I find it unusual that TC Helicon does not publish this for their products. This is not the code that defines the internal design of the unit which would be proprietary, but simply the data code that enables one to change basic parameters, send and receive data, and provide control to certain functions. This is useful if you are doing sequencing and find it necessary to have something change during the course of a sequence.

I too have experienced a freeze up.  My unit is over a year old, has the latest firmware, and I use a Yamaha Motif XS8. I Reside in the USA. FYI

I also have experienced the "freezing up" of my VL2 in the several years of use. After placing a compact AC line conditioner for the the power source of the VL2 wall wart transformer, I have no longer experienced any of the "freezing up". I hope this may help those that are experiencing this. Thanks.

David

I don't think it's a "Bull In the Chinashop approach" to ensure that what you bought is working properly - anything electronic these days is chock full of components that come from various manufacturers and are all assembled overseas - a dud is bound to happen to any product in any market for any manufacturer occasionally.

You literally have 30-45 days to return a product easily through a dealer.  If it is faulty in that initial timeperiod, why wouldn't you? 

If you bought a car and the headlights didn't work the day after you drove it off the lot, would you troubleshoot with the manufacturer?  Or would you go back immediately to have the place that sold it to you sort it out?   What if it was a cellphone?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support that there is a learning curve with anything and you don't want to overlook settings or options that could cause issues.   But 'freezing' is not a feature in a menu and is a telltale sign of hardware or software failure....cellphones/computers/musical devices/anything with soft/hardware.

I can appreciate the fact that you are actually interacting with the company that makes the product to get to the bottom of this, just suggesting you watch your time and don't have to pay to send it away because 30 days is up.

Hi all,

We have used a user submitted MIDI file via MIDI-OX to re-create the crash, which was really nice for someone to record/submit for us. The problem lies in that our debug header, the doodad that "watches" everything going on in the box while it operates, sees the "crash" when it happens, but refuses to show us why. It's really frustrating. We're looking at what might be causing the information not to get picked up by the system.

I talked to our new software guy, who's been working on some updates for products and he's really interested in tracking this one down, so I'll keep you posted on his progress. It'll likely take at least a few days for the crash to happen, but we'll leave a unit on each night and hope it runs into the issue.

Cheers,
Craig

Hello again Jeepers,

Thank you for your post.

I'm about to react in the direction of product return to dealership and a refund of cash. Whilst the VL2 which I own is one of many thousands sold, it is not alone with the "Freezing" problem. Other VL2 purchasers have had this "freeze" issue for some considerable time now without resolution and that's more than a little worrying.

As you so rightly observe, 'time is of the essense' here and running out rapidly. I will not miss the boat by delaying its return. Thanks for your concern, it's appreciated.

I have just replied to our member "bullseye101d" in the post above expressing my loss of faith in the current VL2 and its ability to perform problem free.

Kindest regards,

John in the UK