• Registered: 2012-02-04
  • Posts: 11

Topic: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

Hello,

I've searched this topic, but only found the problem and not the answer. I've been a  VL2 user since the beginning and use a Yamaha sustain pedal as a momentary switch for operating the harmonies. I know many have had issues where you have to step on the pedal every time you change patches to disengage the harmonies. For me, while I had to toggle the pedal on and off several times right after it boots to get rid of the harmonies, I've always been able to move patch to patch without having to press the pedal after that. Every time I update firmware though I have to screw around with my VL2 to get it to work like that (and never wrote down what I did). I've used it this way for several hundred shows now.

Well a few hours ago I moved to the 1.4 firmware and I can't for the life of me get it back to that state. I have a feeling whatever workaround I was using is no longer available due to the inclusion of functionality for the new harmony switching microphones, which was the main reason for the firmware release.

That said, I thought I'd throw out a thread to see if anyone has been successful in getting the pedal to flow one patch to another without having to tap it each time to assure the harmonies aren't on.

Thanks -

Last edited by abzurd (2012-02-04 08:31:05)

  • Registered: 2010-07-09
  • Posts: 178

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

I've been complaining about this ever since the beginning...
I use a Boss Momentary pedal.

While I have gotten use to the fact that TC isn't gonna do anything about it, I have just about mastered the process of changing custom presets after each song to dis-engage the harmony. It's almost as routine as switching my guitar pedals,

BUT

There should be and should have been a fix for this....

Their expression pedal steps DOES NOT address this issue, that when changing presets you have to step on the pedal to disengage the harmonies...

In the beginning it was very frustrating and embarrassing to change presets and begin to talk or engage with the crowd in harmony... I almost sold my unit as it is geared more to a Acoustic artist and NOT a live group setting unless you want to have that big box in front of you always staring down at it hoping and praying that you step on the right button or you leave it on the same preset all the time. But I have adapted to it after 2 years of working with it in our shows...

PayDirt - Fall Into Me (Emerson Drive Cover)

PayDirt - Long Hot Summer & Fast Cars & Freedom (Keith Urban - Rascal Flatts Covers)





This is one issue TC can fix but for some reason they choose not to...and it's a shame...
I have sent many requests for a fix for this issue. And my expectation for this fix is not too much to ask for especially for the price of this unit..

Because we have endorsements for most of the gear we use, I'm always asked about the gear I use (I'm not endorsed by TC in any way)I'm always asked how I get the harmonies, Unfortunately when other groups ask me about the VL2 I have discouraged them regarding this issue and the complexity of the unit and inform them of more simple TC plug and play devices.

  • Registered: 2012-02-04
  • Posts: 11

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

The funny thing is, I've had no issue until this firmware. Until the other day the harmonies would engage when I first turned on the unit, but after toggling the pedal 4-6 times to get it to turn off I could go the rest of the night with no issues. I'm probably just going to go back to the last firmware version and see if I can get it back to how I had it before. I just use a simple Yamaha FC-5 sustain pedal.

Strange though that others have not been successful in getting it to work properly with previous firmware versions.

Last edited by abzurd (2012-02-12 19:01:12)

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

Hey guys,

You can save presets with Harmony Moment. The preset will always load with Harmony off and only engage when you press the Harmony button.

The pedal connection wasn't designed to support a momentary pedal, just expression, so I can see why you've had to kind of hack your way around it. It's neat that you got it to work, but it's not something that was designed into the box. If the workaround was disabled during an update, there must have been an adjustment to accommodate a fix or feature implementation.

Sorry I can't give you a solution to that one. It is something we're definitely looking to offer in future products, based on your requests.

Cheers,
Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • Registered: 2012-02-04
  • Posts: 11

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

The "harmony moment" setting does nothing to overcome the poor design of the VL2 with regard to the location of the harmony switch. It's just in a silly location too easily interfered with by other switches. To me it's common sense to put it on a lower corner of the unit. The external pedal is also nice because you can leave the unit tucked up under a monitor out of the way. It makes the unit much less obtrusive to the audience and less of a tripping hazard on stage and you rarely, if ever, have to look down. That said I guess I'll just rewire the switches and swap the FX with the harmony switch.

Last edited by abzurd (2012-02-13 10:43:10)

  • Jeepers
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  • Registered: 2012-02-03
  • Posts: 51

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

Poor design?  Common Sense?  According to....you? 

Not to be argumentative but switch placement is a pretty subjective thing really - having access to Bypass/Tuner is pretty important to alot of people I would guess....and you wouldn't really want Preset up/down to be in the middle...or go side to side....so which corner?  wink

  • Registered: 2012-02-04
  • Posts: 11

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

Jeepers wrote:

Poor design?  Common Sense?  According to....you? 

Not to be argumentative but switch placement is a pretty subjective thing really - having access to Bypass/Tuner is pretty important to alot of people I would guess....and you wouldn't really want Preset up/down to be in the middle...or go side to side....so which corner?  wink

Yes, IMO it's a design flaw. In its current position there's no operating the unit out of the corner of your eye. You either have to stand directly over the unit with your foot practically hovered over the switch or you have to noticeably look down, every time you activate the harmonies, which is very unprofessional. Let's say on average you use the harmony switch 5 times per song. If you don't use the momentary feature that's 10 activations of the switch per song. Multiply that by 40 songs and you have 400 pressings of that switch per show. I've seen the VL2 in use by other performers on 2 occasions. Both times it was obvious and a bit distracting as the performers looked down every single time they needed to harmonize. Obviously I have to look down to change patches and turn on/off effects between songs if I'm talking, but you'll rarely see me look down to harmonize. I've performed with this unit approximately 150 times or roughly 6,000 songs so I'm not just nitpicking or being philosophical with my comments.

This is the 5th harmonizer I've owned and used extensively live with 4 of them being TC-Helicon products (Voiceprism, Voiceworks, Voiceworks Plus, VoiceLive2). The VoiceLive2 is the most competent of the bunch with features such as tap tempo and steps allowing for a lot of functionality and flexibility. That said I hold firm that the location of the harmony switch is a flaw. I'm not the only person that has this opinion. This could be corrected with additional flexibility like allowing a momentary pedal full functionality of the harmony function or by allowing the user to reprogram the harmony location.

Last edited by abzurd (2012-02-13 13:12:45)

  • Jeepers
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  • Registered: 2012-02-03
  • Posts: 51

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

Just like Trash is to Treasure, i'm sure your design flaw is a feature to someone else.

How is looking down at your pedals any different than what most guitarists do?  I've played with guitarists whose pedal boards looked like a foot-controlled airplane cockpit.   Funny, I never thought of them as unprofessional.

I hesitate to say...but that's 'just the way it is' until you hit that level where you can hire a guy backstage to press buttons and make changes for you...

Sooooooo.  At this point its just a virtual pissing contest based on opinions - should we wait to hear from someone who would have an issue with the bypass/tuner being in the middle to sway the vote? 

It sounds like you need to put yours on a rack shelf and put a Roland FC-300 on the floor with your Midi-Mouse.

I never did write that letter to Hyundai to complain about them putting the drink holder in front of the stereo controls...

  • Registered: 2012-02-04
  • Posts: 11

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

You seem to be irritated by my take on this topic. I don't see this as a pissing contest. I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with it. There are few things like this I'm this I'm set on, but about this I am. To your point, I've had the rack versions of TC-Helicon products with a Digitech pedal (like the FC300) and you are right, they are better solutions for a more stealthly performance. They lack the "at your toetips" functionality that the VL2 has.

Your comparison to guitarists and their giant pedal board doesn't really ring with me. It's not because I don't disagree that many guitarists use them. Our guitarist is guilty as charged. His pedal board is stupid big and a running joke in our band. Here's the thing.... it's common place, heck expected, for guitarists to have pedals, and look down at their instrument and pedals. For singers, especially lead singers with no instrument, this is not the case. It's that simple.

I realize the VL2 is designed first and foremost for the guitarist/singer who will be seated or standing in front of the unit. For these performers it's one more thing to look down and operate, but you're right in that it doesn't look that out of place.

You keep asking where I'd put the harmony button and I've answered it earlier in the thread. I'd put it on the bottom right switching the Harmony and FX buttons. I don't think it matters where the tuner is because you have to look down at the unit display to use the tuner so you're already visually engaging the thing. I am having a hard time with why the most used button  positioned between other buttons is a feature, especially sitting next to the step switch. I can almost guarantee you that any performer making use of the step button regularly has had an "oops" moment and pressed it accidentally instead of the harmony switch.

  • Jeepers
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  • Registered: 2012-02-03
  • Posts: 51

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

My reasoning is the same as yours:

abzurd wrote:

I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with it.

I only keep asking about button placement as someone else probably feels just as strongly about the preset up/down being on an outer edge or  the bypass button being where it is - it's your black and white stance on opinion-as-fact I have a problem with...Personally I would have preferred a single big line of buttons instead of two, but I don't consider it a design flaw that it isn't like that.

In this day and age where laptops are on stage and people in the crowd are texting, what's some buttons on the floor in front of a singer?  Who gives a shit?  I mean either your crowd is paying attention and knows something is up when they can hear the harmonies and effects added, or they are none the wiser and don't have a clue.  Why hide it?   Hell it sounds downright elegant compared to your guitar players board.

Anyways, I've punched incorrect switches in broad daylight and in pitch black, wished things were closer to my foot so I could hit them easier, and wished other things were further away so I didn't hit them by accident.  It's all part of the show!

  • Registered: 2010-07-09
  • Posts: 178

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

Craig with all due respect, This is something TC should have taken into consideration. I believe a FW update would fix this regarding the use of a momentary pedal. If you have to always look down at that VL2 while performing to engage or disengage the harmony it takes away from the performance.

If I can disengage the harmonies by stepping on & off the momentary pedal until I need them, and after I initially step on it,it works flawlessly until I choose another preset and have to repeat the same process, there is no doubt a FW could fix this...Don't need another unit this one just needs updated to fix this problem, I doubt most of us after using this unit and getting it to to work the best we can is gonna fork over another 8-900 dollars for another unit only to go through the same trial and error..

Like I said I have it down almost flawlessly but it has taken a LONG time to get it to work the way I need it to..

Let me say I do Love my unit but it was a LOT of work to get it to work in a live group situation and the harmonies can not be beat

Last edited by muzicmaken (2012-02-13 18:41:40)

  • Registered: 2011-03-25
  • Posts: 133

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

I use the pedal that came with a m-audio black box which is an expression pedal.

It works good to control the harmonies, like a volume control for the harmonies.

I also use CC's in the midi harmony control track in cubase to control the volume while the note data controls the harmony choice.

  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 2011-07-25
  • Posts: 739

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

Hey all,

This is a case where the box is working as intended, but a feature you'd like isn't there. To be honest, we're not likely to implement the feature. There's a lot of work being done right now to address current bugs, some of which are quite elusive, so we won't have resources to devote to a change to the way the expression pedal can operate.

I know it won't be what you want to hear, but it's better for me to tell you straight out than do a little dance around it. I'm not a very good dancer anyway. wink

Cheers,
Craig

Craig @ TC-Helicon's Website

  • Registered: 2012-02-04
  • Posts: 11

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

FWIW, I never expected a "fix". I mentioned the issue 2 yrs ago to support and got the same answer then. I really don't understand the resistance to the idea as it relies on no additional hardware. If you wanted to make this change it could be implemented in a matter of weeks with the proper programming resources. Furthermore, after some screwing around with some settings, IT DID WORK until the last firmware upgrade, at least for me.

It just seems short sided to put the product in a box defining it as a unit intended solely for the singing guitarist with a requirement of standing directly in front of the unit at all times. For the non-instrument wielding front man the current design has limitations. To me it's that simple.

In any case, thanks for the clarity on the issue.  OK, I've banged this drum long enough.

Last edited by abzurd (2012-02-14 11:00:47)

  • Registered: 2010-07-09
  • Posts: 178

Re: Expression pedal harmonies on when changing patches

It wasn't meant to be a "Boss / Digitech jamman" knockoff pedal either but the looper was implemented.

abzurd: very well said.


As much as I love the harmonies in this unit, And I have gotten it to work for "me" If a "new" model came out I wouldn't buy it. AS you said TC's units are geared more for the solo or acoustic artist just like the implementation of the looper....

This has been a 2 yrs work in progress